Wednesday, September 9, 2009

Conversation with a Mormon -- Forgiveness and Repentance

Dustin:Hello, how may i help you?
Ken: I was wondering if you could explain something to me about Forgiveness
Dustin: sure?
Dustin:great what would you like to know about it?
Ken: A friend of mine, who is a Mormon, was explaining a parable an LDS leader told about forgiveness where you owe God, and Jesus takes your fine
Dustin: ok
Dustin: Well every body sins and there is no way for use to pay heavenly father back of doing this wrong
Ken: ok
Dustin: the only way we could pay him back is to sacrifice something that is perfect and without sin
Dustin: and jesus christ is the only one who was perfect besides god.
Dustin: so jesus volunteered to die for our sins
Dustin: so we could return to our father in heaven. but it's not a free ride. we still have to repent.
Ken: ok, so when Jesus Died on the Cross, I don't understand how my debt transfered, so that I owe him and not the Father
Dustin: ok well have you ever had to pay some one so you barrowed money from some one else?
Dustin: its like paying a cell phone bill with a credit card.
Ken: ok
Dustin: you have payed it you just barrowed money from some one else.
Ken: ok
Dustin: jesus is like the credit card he was the only one who could pay heavenly father back.
Ken: ok
Dustin: so our debt goes to jesus. Did that help at all?
Ken: yes
Ken: I don't then understand how I am getting out from under my debt
Ken: if forgiveness is defined as "It is to pardon or excuse someone from blame for an offense or misdeed"
Ken: It doesn't seem like that happens, I never get excused
Dustin: well you aren't, how you return the debt to jesus is to repent.
Ken: I just get passed off
Dustin: like paying the credit bill when it comes.
Ken: So it is up to me to pay off Jesus?
Dustin: well it does when you repent you are getting the excuse or pardon from jesus
Ken: If I am doing something, how is it a pardon
Dustin: yes yes it is completely up to you. you have to choose to repent to pay off jesus
Ken: it seems really hard
Dustin: you have to repent. do you know what it means to repent?
Ken: To turn around, seek forgiveness, and then Not do it ever again?
Dustin: yes it is hard. its how we show were are sorry for the things we done. but its not impossible. i have repented for things in my life.
Dustin: yes that is repentence
Ken: how do you know you won't do them in the future?
Ken: I mean, as a dude, can you tell me that you or I go a day without lust?
Dustin: you don't it is completely up to you. if you choose to do them or not. but true repentance you will strive to not do them again
Dustin: i know exactly what your talking about.
Ken: So is Repentance about actually not doing it again, or just meaning to not do it again?
Dustin: the point were you have to repent is if you act on that lust.
Ken: so just lusting is ok, but when I act on it, that is when it becomes sin?
Dustin: Repentance is not doing it again. lust is the temptation.
Dustin: yes
Ken: ok
Dustin: i'm a missionary and i still look at girls and have the same temptation but i do not act on it.
Portions of this chat were changed (spelling corrections and double lines removed), emphasis was added. My Purpose for this is not to trap Mormons, but rather for us to see what they will actually say.

I have to say that is was the most telling and troubling conversation I have ever had on Chat with a Missionary. The amount of redefinition that occurred was unthinkable, and this is most shocking when it comes to Sin.

The other thing that I am a bit confused about, and maybe a Mormon can comment on this, When He (Dustin) said that Jesus is the only person who is perfect besides the Father, he seems to be leaving out the Holy Spirit ( who is described as a personage in LDS theology) and Elhoim's Father (God's Father).


Jason said...

I've used this chat a few times. When you ask the hard questions they transfer you to someone else and you never really get an answer. I've tried discussing the planet I could earn and the garments without much success.

Anonymous said...

Ken, as a member of the LDS faith, I can tell you without hesitation that the Holy Spirit is of course without sin--as are God, and His son, Jesus Christ. The fact that Dustin forgot to mention that doesn't mean it is not part of our beliefs. I hope this helps.