Wednesday, February 27, 2008

Who Speaks Truth in Mormonism

So I have been doing more reading on the topic of Mormonism, thus the all posts about it. This is another. The question is as follows:

Who Speaks for the Truth that is in Mormonism? Why should any Mormon believe the unofficial view LDS Apologists and BYU profs. or what has been said by Joseph Smith?

Lets examine this question in light of the peoples in the Americas.

Joseph Smith says - That all American Indians are "Literally descendants of Abraham." Ohio Journal 1835-1836, Nov 9.

The BOM supports Him.

Mormon 1:7 - The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.

This is Echoed by Previous Prophets also, " The Term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as Polynesians, the Guatemalans, The Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo and others." - Spencer W. Kimball

But LDS Apologists and BYU Profs. are saying something different in light of what is found by DNA tests that Show that Native Americans are Asiatic. (Thomas W. Murphy, "Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy and Genetics" ; Michael Crawford, "The Origins of Native Americans" ; D.C. Wallace et, al., "Dramatic Founder Effects in Amerindian Mitochondrial DNAs" And Others)

LDS Prof. Jeffery Meldrum says this, " The necessary experiment simply cannot be designed that would rufute the historicity of the Book of Mormon as the record of a small population ( small intermingled population ) on the basis of DNA studies and population genetics. [emphasis added]"

Modern day Mormon scholars see the problem and are trying to get around the issue. They are saying it is a small group of people, that this group of people that both the BOM and LDS prophets said are very large, are small.

So who do you put your trust in as a Mormon? Prophets or Scholars? There is only one truth and each side is opposing the other. The Secular evidence is against the Prophets. So who is your trust in?

Monday, February 25, 2008

The problem of the First Vision

In the official First Vision account it says this ( Paraphrased) Two Persons appeared, one said to Joseph, " This is my beloved Son, hear him." These persons were Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. This occurred in 1820 when Joseph was 14 (in his 15th year).

However this seems to be very Problematic. Setting aside 1 Tim 6:16. We have D&C 84. Which was received on Sep. 22-23, 1832. Verses 21-22 say this -
And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the {Melchizedek} priesthood, the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
And this is what is said on

This greater priesthood was given to Adam and has been on the earth whenever the Lord has revealed His gospel. It was taken from the earth during the Great Apostasy, but it was restored in 1829, when the Apostles Peter, James, and John conferred it upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.
Do you see the Contradiction here? Joseph Smith didn't get the Priesthood until 1829. But He claims that he Saw the Face of God and Lived in 1820. This is denied by MORMON scriptures.

The only logicals Conclusion are: 1) that the Joseph Smith did not See the Father like He said making him a Liar. 2) He made a False Prophecy in D&C 84, and thus is not a True Prophet of God.

Thursday, February 21, 2008

The Philosophical Problem of Mormonism

There are some serious issues with Mormon's having a Living Prophet. The most serious of these is that Mormon Truth is not Absolute.

Consider what Ezra Taft Benson says in Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet...

Therefore, the most important prophet, so far as you and I are concerned, is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing His will for us. Therefore, the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet contained each week in the Church Section of the Deseret News, and any words of the prophet contained each month in our Church magazines. Our marching orders for each six months are found in the general conference addresses, which are printed in the Ensign magazine.

The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Basically, what this means is that when it comes to LDS Doctine, there is nothing concrete. Mormons can only find truth in what is being taught currently. So when someone looks at the D&C section 132 and the need for polygamy it is superseded by official decree 1, but only if it is supported by the modern prophet.

Where does this leave truth. Mormons seem to have an evolving truth, where it is one thing one day and another the next. This is so philosophically problematic.

First, Truth is absolute. Relativism is not a philosophical option. There is one truth, and it can not change or waver or it would not be truth. God is Truth. So then, what do we do with statements within Mormonism that contradict each other? I know Mormons will tell me that " That ( referring to the old [ like blood atonement or anything in JOD or HOTC]) was truth for that time, and today we have truth for our time." They do truly believe what it is that was taught by elder Benson.

This, however, creates a serious issue with the concept of evolving truth, that sometimes completely contradicts what was previously true. This rational is at is core covered in logical fallacy. Consider the Law of Non-contradiction. What Mormon's, in fact, have to say about certain teachings of past prophets is that, it was true but it isn't true now. This violates the first law of logic. It also violates the Law of Identity (which says something is what it is), because truth becomes not truth. It is not what it is. Truth by nature must be stagnant, and unchanging. There is no such thing as 'new' Truth. We can discover truth, yes, but it has always been, and it doesn't change, it isn't new.

For Mormons, truth is determined prophet to prophet. They have no stagnant truth. If The prophet were to come out today and say that homosexuality is acceptable, what could Mormons do? They couldn't even go to the Standard Works, because the (believed) truth therein, is less true then the Prophet.

Another area where this comes into play is when people pray about the truthfulness of the BOM. I know that it is frustrating when Mormons pray with people about the BOM and the person says they feel nothing. Or when a person like myself prays about the BOM and it is revealed that it is false. There is a disconnect of truth here. Because the book is either true or not true. And if Mormonism is truly the only way to return to Heavenly Father and wants people to return to him (Eze 18:32) why would He not give such a confirmation? Most Mormons attack the person, for being willing or sincere enough to hear from God. This, however, creates several theological issues, which I will not delve into here, but perhaps will at a later time.

I would also submit that sometimes Mormons just don't know what the truth is on a given subject. I will cite two examples to make this most clear. First, Where did the battles recorded in the BOM take place? There has been no archaeological support for any of these 'Great Battles.' Where is the Truth? Where did they take place? Why Haven't they been found after 60 years? Why are there no maps in the BOM outlining these things? Second, What are the "gold plates" made out of? LDS apologetics cite FARMS will say they are made out of a material called Tumbaga, which is a mix between Gold and Copper. Yet the Church and Mormon documentation disagrees. Mosiah 8:9 says that the plates of the Jaredite's are Pure Gold. And we also see this is a May 15, 1999 article in the LDS Church News - He had also been instructed by an angel, Moroni, who had met with him each year for four years. On his last visit, he was entrusted with plates of solid gold, which he had been translating by the power of the Spirit." So what is the Truth? Are they Gold or Not? How Can any LDS be sure of these things? Personal Testimony, The usual answer leads nowhere, but to more problems within the nature of truth, in that it can be one thing for one person and another for a second. This is Not truth. How Do Mormons Live Without Solid Truth?

Thursday, February 14, 2008

God's Purpose for Family

He (God) established a testimony in Jacob and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers to teach to their children, that the next generation might know them, the children yet unborn, and arise and tell them to their children, so that they should set their hope in God and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments; and that they should not be like their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation, a generation whose heart was not steadfast, whose spirit was not faithful to God. (Psalms 78:5-8).

This was something from the devotional book Courtney and I read together, and at first I disliked the exegesis of the passage and as time has gone on, it has started to make more sense. So, this passage is something that I believe should be seen as at least part of God's plan in family. Remember that God is a Jealous God who visits the iniquity of the father to the third and fourth generation (Ex. 20:5) at least until Ezekiel (chp. 18) became a prophet. So how does this psalm apply to us, if each man is credited his own works and not the works of his father? Simply stated it teaches us the importance of raising up our Children in the Lord. Six times in the book of Proverbs, that a father should not spare the Rod from his son; reason are things like so he will grow in wisdom, and not bring shame to his mother. We must teach our children discipline, this is clear.
Notice what the Psalmist is saying here, that we teach the law of God to our children so that they will not be like there fathers, stubborn and rebellious, but so that they will have a heart that is faithful to God. Also, there is a phrase in there that is worth bringing out, "so that they should set their hope in God and not forget the works of God." We teach our children the not only the law of God, but we are to tell him the great things he has done, for us in the past. Anyone who has read the OT, (Kings and Chronicles specifically) can see that what a father did for his son, had a great effect on how he ruled the nation. Whether or not he was wicked in the sight of God depended on his memory of what God had done for his forefathers.
This seems logical, in that, if a man doesn't know about God's love for him, he certainly won't love God ( 1 John 4:19). I guess the point is that if our Children are not taught wisdom, are not taught and modeled the love of Christ, are not taught the laws of God, what else can we expect from them other then to wallow in their own depravity?

Tuesday, February 12, 2008

Homosexuality Argument

I am showing:

1. Why marriage can not be between members of the same sex, as there is not starting of the practice by God. ( Genesis 2:24)

2. As Homosexual's can not marry, therefore they must fornicate.

3. Fornication is sin. (1 Corinthians 6:18 Darby : Flee fornication. Every sin which a man may practice is without the body, but he that commits fornication sins against his own body. )

4. Christians should Hate Sin. ( 1 John 3:8-10)


5. A Christian can not be a homosexual, in action.

All fornication is sin. (1 Corinthians 6:18) This is regardless of who you are fornicating with.

Now, the issue is can a homosexual be married. Because if he can then one might be forced to look beyond this argument, as it is beyond the scope.

So, lets look at when marriage was instituted.

Gen 2:22-25: And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from the man, made He a woman, and brought her unto the man. And the man said: 'This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.' Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

some NT statements to the same effect...

Eph 5:22-31: Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it; that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Even so ought husbands also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his own wife loveth himself: for no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as Christ also the church; because we are members of his body. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.

Mark 10:4-9: And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. But Jesus said unto them, For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of the creation, Male and female made he them. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh: so that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mat 19:3-6: And there came unto him Pharisees, trying him, and saying, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

The question then is -

Can anyone give a God ordained example of members the same sex marrying, from the bible or one could show where homosexual marriage is instituted by God.

If not, we must say that all homosexual acts are fornication, and therefore sinful.

I am not saying that Christians can not have homosexual attraction, But i am saying that if they openly practice this behavior, they are in opposition to Scripture.

Monday, February 11, 2008

Door To Door Sales - OK. Door to Door Christians - Not

From The Alliance Defense Fund -

MILWAUKEE — Attorneys with the Alliance Defense Fund filed a lawsuit in federal court Friday to strike down a Kewaskum village ordinance that severely restricts the constitutional right to free speech and religious freedom.

“Christians should not be penalized for expressing their beliefs,” said ADF Senior Counsel Nate Kellum. “Exercising your First Amendment rights is not a crime. Our client simply wanted to quietly leave religious literature on door handles of city residents without bothering anyone, yet the city denied him even this most basic exercise of his constitutional right to free speech.”

On April 25, 2007, Michael Foht went to two neighborhoods in the village of Kewaskum to place flyers sharing his Christian beliefs on the door handles of residences. After receiving a complaint from one of the residents, a Kewaskum police officer informed Foht that a local ordinance prohibited him from distributing the information. The officer informed him that he would be fined $172 every time he was found in violation of the ordinance, and might even face arrest. Foht has not returned to the village to distribute his literature.

“It’s our hope that the court will strike down this overly broad ordinance and allow Mr. Foht and others to once again distribute literature to village residents,” said Kellum.

I hope that folks realize that the implication of this 'village law' is that it is great for me to pass out an add about something that I am selling, but that I will get fined $ 172 if I were to pass something about the Gospel.

Selling the Gospel

"Selling the Gospel 2 Corinthians 11:6-7" - Even though I may be untrained as an orator, I am not so in the field of knowledge. We have made this clear to all of you in every possible way. Did I commit a sin when I humbled myself by proclaiming to you the gospel of God free of charge, so that you could be exalted?

Paul was very learned in the Scriptures, He had spent the majority of his life being trained in the OT, He most likely had the entire OT committed to memory. This He states is a good thing, and there seems to be a literal technique being practiced of comparing opposites to make a point. ( I don't know the real term for that) Notice, he says, I am not a trained speaker, but I am a trained theologian. I think that training in bible college and Seminary is very important. It helps one learn from other great theologians in a discipleship fashion. I mean just imagine being taught the ins and outs of the Gospel by the Apostle Paul. That would make you a great evangelist. Today we don't have Paul, but we do have someone like John Piper or Paul Washer. We Have men like John Macarthur who have great insight about the overall concepts and themes in scripture. We have Josh McDowell who can teach you all about the historical accuracies of the Bible and the evidence for it's truth. The difference between a layman and a studied preacher is a huge amount of knowledge. I mean the process of exegesis and accurate hermeneutics are things that take time and learning from a good teacher. Now, the next verse Paul talks about not selling the Gospel. This is something that I believe no true Christian could do. We have the message of God that He has died for our sins, and that we can receive forgiveness and everlasting life. Could you image a person selling this? Saying, " I will give you the path to eternal life, if you give me $20." This is inconceivable. A person working hard to counsel, teach, disciple, grow, guide, teach, lead and manage the Church Body, the offerings, and to organize the local body so that they can most effectively affect the community around them for Christ, is doing something far different then selling the Gospel.

Other relevant Scriptures to this topic -

I am free, am I not? I am an apostle, am I not? I have seen Jesus our Lord, haven't I? You are my work in the Lord, aren't you? If I am not an apostle to other people, surely I am one to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord! This is my defense to those who would examine me: We have the right to eat and drink, don't we? We have the right to take a believing wife with us like the other apostles, the Lord's brothers, and Cephas, don't we? Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? Who would ever go to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of its grapes? Or who takes care of a flock and does not drink any of its milk? I am not saying this on human authority, am I? The law says the same thing, doesn't it? For in the law of Moses it is written, "You must not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." God is not only concerned about oxen, is he? Isn't he really speaking on our behalf? Yes, this was written on our behalf, because the one who plows should plow in hope, and the one who threshes should thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap material benefits from you? If others enjoy this right over you, don't we have a stronger claim? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with everything in order not to put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. You know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple and that those who serve at the altar get their share of its offerings, don't you? In the same way, the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living from the gospel.
(1 Corinthians 9:1-14)

Elders who handle their duties well should be considered worthy of double compensation, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You must not muzzle an ox while it is treading out grain," and "A worker deserves his pay."
(1 Timothy 5:17-18)