The Consumer Driven Church pt. 2

The more I think about the topic of Consumerism in the church the more comes to mind. Specifically things that are done by mega-churches such as Granger Community Church. Now, I am not condemning large churches in general, but rather the methods that are employed at times, by them. Consider this sign from 'Church Requel.' Notice how the Goal is the drawing of people, not Jesus. Moreover, it is a selfish (sinful) motive that one should come to the church, because YOU want life change. What is worse is the concept being forwarded, is that of life change, and it isn't the Christian Message or even close to it. Yes, Christianity changes lives, but it is because God changes people's hearts, wills and desires, and because we become justified and begin being sanctified. The Christian message is repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name. The consumerism of our churches has changed that offensive message of the cross to make it more palatable for the unregenerate sinner who has come into the church for 'life change.'

In reality, it seems that the promise of life change is also a simple lie. The main reason I make that comment is that Requel Church, has no power to change lives in the Christian sense, that ability belongs to God alone. Father more it seems to me that the idea of life change is the end goal, and this picture is foreign to biblical authors. In our consumerist desires look to the church/Jesus to increase our comforts, supply desires, and increase prosperity, all while making our quality of life better. Yet consider Paul's statements that he makes without disdain:

To my shame, I must say, we were too weak for that! But whatever anyone else dares to boast of--I am speaking as a fool--I also dare to boast of that. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one--I am talking like a madman--with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant? If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. (2 Corinthians 11:21-30 ESV)

Yet in all of this, the modern ideal of comfort is missing. Where is the concept of Life Improvement? I mean, Paul's life was changed, from that of a rich young lawyer, well respected by his community to what we see him describe above. That isn't what I would call improvement, save for his salvation a sanctification in Christ Jesus the Lord. The whole point of this Life Improvement gospel, is an appeal to the consumerist driven American culture.

I think that the recent Facebook postings of womens bra colors are a picture of this same consumerism. How? Walk through any mall, and you will see Large photographs of women in their bra's, designed to excite and spawn desire, the same can be said for TV, Billboards, some Magazines, ect... all this consumerism has lead to a hardening of our minds in terms of sexuality, whereby we need more to be excited, but also we fail to even realize that behavior such as this is even sexual. This is from the root of consumerism that screams "BUY BUY BUY" and as the saying goes, "Sex Sells."

Let us work to recapture our innocence of heart and mind. Let us Strive to realize that the consumerism in our lives and mortify it. If not, We will usher in our children to the Consumer Driven Church.

Who is the Real Fundimentalist

I have been busy over at Tony Jones' Blog. They posed a question about being 'intersexed' and I have been responding to one person specifically, Panthera.

I am going to post the conversation that has being occurring between He (?) and I, the goal of this is to see who the real fundimentalist is within this conversation.

panthera:

dustin germain my marriage is legitimate. What you and your hateful version of Christianity thinks is totally irrelevant.

For what it's worth, my opinion is very simply put:

You should love the person who loves you. Build a committed, monogamous, loving, faithful and true marriage. Who cares what your chromosomal status or your sexuality is, marriage is strictly between two people and not determined by hateful conservative Christians.

Regardless of how often they rape, torture, beat and kill us.

Me:

Panthera~

I don't know what your story is, or frankly anything about who you are, and I'm not trying put on a pretense of judgment towards you, however, I think that for the Christian, the word of God must be our Authority for Truth. There are so many experiences, philosophies, sects, cults, and religious persons that I believe that to submit to any of them outside of scripture is folly.In Short, We must have an Arbiter of truth that is external from us.

That said I am a conservative Christian. I have never Raped, Tortured, Beat or Killed anyone and being as I don't even know who you are I clearly don't hate you. That said, I am, because of my belief in Sola Scriptura, against any and all forms of marriage that are not given to be valid covenantally by the Word of God (see Gen. 1-2, Matthew 19). I am forced by my love for scripture and the God of Scripture to say that out side of God instituting a covenant, persons in committed, monogamous,loving, lifelong relationships are still fornicating, an act described as sin by both the New and Old Testaments.

Is it possible for you to see that perhaps persons who take the view that I have just outlined are not hate-mongers, but rather are people who lovingly desire for you to not come under condemnation from God Almighty?

panthera:

Of course it is possible for me, Ken.

I find it sad that you needs must imprison God by limiting Him to your interpretation of the Bible. And that is what you do.

Calling my marriage fornication is absurd. Do you really think I would abandon my husband just to satisfy your mumbo-jumbo?

Not going to happen.

There is little charity amongst you fundamentalist Christians, little indeed if you can call a faithful partnership of 25 years a sin.

Oh, and, yes, I am a Christian. You can be a Christian and gay. Even a Christian and gay and married.

Me:

panthera -

I would like to systematically address your response.

1. I think that it is completely irrational and unreasonable to say that I am imprisoning God. If the text explains God, then holding to that isn't an imprisonment, but rather a representation. This type of language serves more to Poison the Well, rather then to make a rational argument.

2. I am not calling your marriage fornication, I am saying that I do not believe that you can support from scripture same-sex marriage, being covenantally begun by God. I would also note that Dee Bradshaw a pastor in the MCC in his debate with Dr. James White said that he could not do so.

3. Do I really think you would abandon your husband just to satisfy my "mumbo-jumbo?" No, I don't. I don't think in fact if Jesus came down and told you that he did not approve of your actions that you would abandon your 'husband.' I hope that you understand that I mean that in the kindest was possible.

4. To say that there is little charity amongst fundamentalists may or may not be true, however, I am not a fundamentalist, which is frankly a derogatory term, that has no place in civil discussion. Notice that no where in what I have said did I Directly say that what you are doing is a sin. That is your conclusion from the logical case I am forwarding, but I did not use the word Sin.

5. I think that we must submit to 1 John as to what a Christian, I don't Judge you.

panthera:

Ken, you wrote, I answered. I won't get into the hysterical fundamentalist/conservative/literalistic/bible-as-God's-only-message discussion with you.

Calling a fundamentalist a fundamentalist is no more an insult than it was after church Sunday when a local farmer came up to me and said his b i t c h was in heat and did I think my dawg might spend the week with his family, 'cause he knows what to do with his nose.

That man would die for his pretty little dog, they're that close. But he still calls her by what she is.

Tony, I see little hope of any mercy from these people for anyone whom they consider 'other'.

Me:

Panthera ~

The clear issue is that I am not a Fundamentalist. As a matter of fact based on the definition of the term, by Richard Dowkins, You are more of a fundamentalist then I am. "Richard Dawkins has used the term to characterize religious advocates as clinging to a stubborn, entrenched position that defies reasoned argument or contradictory evidence."

The clear fact is that you, in our brief encounter, have done exactly this. Thus we must conclude that You are the Fundamentalist not I.

panthera:

Ken,
And Richard Dawkin's opinion is relevant because...?

I simply don't care how you self-identify. I have no interest in the mumbo-jumbo you practice in your version of Christianity in your church.

All I care about is that you cease attacking my status as a human and stop blocking my civil rights, including the right to have my marriage legally recognized in the US.

That is the difference between us - I am more than happy to leave you and your hatefilled ilk be. You recognize neither my status as Christian nor human, demanding I bend to your perverted, hatefilled will.

Ain't gonna happen.

I will die before I surrender to you and your nasty fellow travelers.

Me:

Panthera ~

Can you please show me, and everyone else reading this where exactly I have said you are "not-Human" in any interaction here.

I find it funny that you refuse to do anything but cry victim, as if I have dehumanized you, degraded you, or treated you at all poorly. When in fact I have done none of these things. I understand that you have no doubt been mistreated previously, which I openly condemn. I am simply trying to have a rational discussion with you about in issue.

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I find it amazing that 1. I am not a nasty, hate-monger, anti-gay, dehumanizing, fundamentalist. However, looking at the more modern definition given by Richard Dawkins, I am asking:

Who is the Real Fundamentalist??

You be the Judge.

Tony Jones and Gay Marriage, Video Blog

I have started to read Tony Jones Blog. If you are unaware of whom Tony Jones is, I would suggest you google the man, but as a short description it would follow (from Zondervan) -

Tony Jones is the National Coordinator of Emergent Village (www.emergentvillage.org), a network of innovative, missional Christians. He's also a doctoral fellow and senior research fellow in practical theology at Princeton Theological Seminary. Tony has written several books on philosophy, theology, ministry, and prayer, including Postmodern Youth Ministry and The Sacred Way. He's a sought-after speaker on the topics of theology and the emerging church. Tony lives in Minnesota with his wife, Julie, and their three young children.

Now Tony describes his stance on the issue of homosexuality as follows -

I now believe that GLBTQ can live lives in accord with biblical Christianity (at least as much as any of us can!) and that their monogamy can and should be sanctioned and blessed by church and state.

So what we have is yet another 'christian leader' who believes that Scripture does not condemn homosexual activity as unnatural, improper or unrighteous. Now I say this with the understanding, that I am assuming that Tony believes and subscribes to Sola Scriptura. However, I do not dismiss the idea that Tony could reject Sola Scriptura, Consider the conclusion of an article from Emergent Village titled So Long Sola?, "We should welcome challenges to the doctrine of Sola scriptura. What was a pillar of truth half a millennium ago, has become an untenable deadweight (one is tempted to say, an idol) in the life of the church." It is possible, given the content given to us from other emergents, that Tony subscribes to an emergent form of finding truth, which would involve Scripture, reason, tradition, experience, creation, intuition, and imagination.


Now that there is a bit of introduction about Tony Jones. I would like to respond to a challenge that Tony Issued on his blog about homosexuality and gay marriage, with the first ever video blog from Thoughts of a Christian.

I may not live in California but ...

I realize that I don't live in California. But as they say, so goes California, so goes the country... Which brings me to Proposition 8. For those who are unaware -- The Passage of Proposition 8 would amend the state constitution to define marriage as the union of one man and one woman, negating a California Supreme Court decision in May that legalized same-sex "marriage" in the Golden State.

This then brings me to who is for and who is against this --

In support of Porp 8.

Rick Warren, Jim Garlow, Miles McPherson
The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Roman Catholic Church, LDS Church


Opposed to Prop 8.

Google, Apple, Every Major Californian News Paper (10 in all)
All six Episcopal diocesan bishops in California, and Several Liberal Jewish Groups.


I would like to publicly say that I believe that Pastor Rick Warren, of whom I am often Critical, is acting in both a biblically sound and proper Christian Manner. Well Done sir, Well done.

To The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - You have done well to speak out on all three state issues that you have. If I were a Lutheran, I would most likely Go Missouri Synod.

To the six Episcopal Bishops - May God have mercy on your souls. I pray that you would repent and return to sound biblical thought. I hope the Anglican Communion gives you the left hand of fellowship. You openly blaspheme the name of Jesus Christ. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.