Discussion with A Mormon on Translations

Chelsea: What prompted you to come onto Mormon.org today?

Me: a question

Me: is that ok

Chelsea: yes of course!

Me: it is about the 8th article of the church

Chelsea: alright

Me: has the church stated or defined what the proper translation of the bible is?

Me: should one be using the Joseph Smith Translation?

Chelsea: The church leves the Bible as is, but we have the Joseph Smith Translation to help clarify doctrine that was changed etc.

Chelsea: We use the King James Version of the Bible.

Me: so is the King James the Proper Translation of the Text?

Chelsea: we know that that is not the proper translation completely, because through Revelation Joseph Smith has helped clarify some scriptures. That is why we say in the 8th Article of Faith, we believe the Bible to be the word of Goid as far as it is translated correctly

Me: hmmm

Me: so what is wrong with the King James?

Chelsea: There is just things that have been translaed incorrectly or doctrines that have been changed through mans understanding.

Me: do you have an example

Chelsea: an example is in John 1:1

Me: ok

Chelsea: In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God

Chelsea: In the Bible it says :In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Chelsea: The first was a translation from Revelation through Joseph Smith.

Chelsea: This clarifys it and helps us to understand that the word means the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Word of God—He created all things and was made flesh—John baptizes Jesus and testifies he is the Lamb of God—John, Andrew, Simon, Philip, and Nathanael believe in Christ and follow him. Christ.

Chelsea: alot of people think that that verse means that God and Jesus Christ are the same person. We know that they are two seperate beings but united in purpose

 

I have to admit, that in all my discussions with Mormons, this is the first time that I have heard this, and while I am not 'surprised' I am shocked at the lengths the Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church go to re-translate the clear texts of scripture. 

However, this is where things get more interesting. Go to - http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/1 and notice the header which reads:  Christ is the Word of God—He created all things and was made flesh—John baptizes Jesus and testifies he is the Lamb of God—John, Andrew, Simon, Philip, and Nathanael believe in Christ and follow him.

Does it seem odd that they wouldn't clear up the misconception that Jesus is God right here? I mean why even publish something that is so bankrupt and clearly wrong, would be a good question for our Mormon friends.

The JST (Joseph Smith Translation) reads as follows:

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.
4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;
5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not. 

....

14 And the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

It seems that there is a bit of a hiccup here because it seems that Ol' Joe forgot to re-translate verse 14, because this would mean that the Gospel was made flesh... and then dwelt among us as who??  ... Jesus ... Maybe? If not then who...? 

Despite Ol' Joe's best effort it seems that he missed something, or perhaps the church will get a word about the JST here.

Special Guest Blog - Why The Bible Is Necessary

I have asked a friend, who is far smarter and more of a scholar then I to write an entry on something that he felt would be valuable for the readership. So here is his Entry.

Why The Bible Is Necessary For Apologetics: A Brief Reflection On 1 Peter 3.15

Introduction

The study of defending the Christian faith has recently become extremely popular. Bookstores are filled with manuals on how Christians can defend their faith. Usually the books present “facts” from secular writings. The Big Bang Theory, Ancient Greek philosophy, Near Death Experiences, selections from secular Roman historians and even liberal theology are used to try and show unbelievers that Christianity is reasonable. Christians are encouraged to look at these “facts” with unbelievers in a “neutral” way as though God does not exist or the Bible is not His Word. I find this odd.

When we are looking for help in our marriages, or need to tell someone how to be saved, or we are trying to find a word of comfort to share with a hurting friend we typically go to the Bible. If we do not go to the Bible for these things, we at least should do so! I find it odd, then, that we should go anywhere other than the Bible when we are called upon to defend our faith.

God knows everything. Thankfully, God has revealed some of His knowledge to us. We have a basis for our knowledge because of revelation. It is for this reason we should turn to the treasures of wisdom (the wisdom of God) we have in the Bible when we need help with…well…anything! Defending the faith is not an exception.

Motive

The Bible is needed for motivation to defend the faith. If someone asks, “Why should we even defend the Christian faith?” the only way we are able to answer at all is if we turn to the Bible. “In your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect…” 1 Peter 3.15 (ESV) This verse of the Bible commands Christians to always be ready to make a defense. This is one verse that gives us our motivation for defending the faith. There are many others. If we approach an unbeliever from a point of view where God does not exist or the Bible is not His Word then there is no need to defend our faith. There is no honest way to get on “common ground” with an unbeliever and still have a reason or motivation to defend our faith. We not only have to be committed to the Bible, we should be committed to it! The Bible tells us that we must defend our faith.

Material

The Bible is needed to tell us what we are defending. The answer to the question, “What is Christianity?” can only be found in the Bible. The verse referenced above mentions that Christ is Lord and speaks of the hope that is within us. This is one verse which presents at least two components of Christianity. There are many others. If we understand that we must defend our faith but do not know what our faith is in then we are unable to defend our faith. We must know what it is we are defending before we are able to defend it. We not only have to know the Bible, we should know it! The Bible tells us about the faith we defend.

Manner

The Bible is necessary to tell us how to defend our faith.

If we believe the Bible then we have a motive for defending our faith and we know what we have faith in, but how should we defend our faith? The verse we have been considering tells us to provide a defense and tells us what we are defending. It also tells us how to defend our faith. We start by regarding Christ the Lord as holy, and we present our arguments with gentleness and respect. This verse contains instruction on how we are to defend our faith. There are many others. There is no reason to regard Christ the Lord as holy or to be gentle and respectful toward those who oppose the faith if we do not recognize that the Bible is morally binding. We cannot even know who Christ is apart from the Bible, much less call Him Lord or regard Him in our hearts as holy. We not only have to submit to the Bible, we should submit to it. The Bible tells us the way in which we are to defend our faith.

Method

The Bible is necessary to tell us the method by which we are to defend our faith.

The Bible is necessary for the motive, material, and manner of the defense of the faith. There is another sense to the question, “How should we defend the faith?” This question is not asking for just the manner in which we defend our faith, but the method by which we defend it. Of course motive, material and manner are all parts of method and we have seen that all three come from the Bible. The method by which we defend our faith likewise comes from…you guessed it…the Bible! Remember that 1 Peter 3.15 commands that we are to honor Christ the Lord as holy. There is no realm in which Christ is not Lord; Christ is Lord of all. Those who do not submit to the Lordship of Christ Jesus are rebelling against God. They disagree with God in thought, word, deed, or some mixture of all of the above. However, no one can disagree with God on a point and still have the truth about it. Disagreeing with God is, to put it plainly, stupid. For example, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’ Psalms 14:1a (ESV)”; ^“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7 (ESV)”; and “For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools Romans 1:21-22 (ESV)”.

Believing The Bible

When someone contradicts the Lord Jesus Christ, who is Truth (John 14.6), on a fundamental point (e.g. the universe is created by God, the Bible is the Word of God) that person is attempting to start off in the wrong direction when it comes to understanding anything correctly. Our method of defending the faith should be the same as what the Bible presents. The Bible makes the claim that it is the Word of God. It is self-attesting. ^“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16-17 (ESV)” If God is the final authority on all matters of truth, then what He says goes. Hence the Bible as the Word of God is also self-authenticating. There is no higher standard than the Word of God by which we may judge the Word of God. “For when God made a promise to Abraham, since He had no one greater by whom to swear, He swore by Himself Hebrews 6:13 (ESV)” If someone does not agree with the Word of God, you can be pretty sure that he or she will not agree with your words concerning the Word of God. The Bible is the Word of God, the Word of God is true, and to reject this results in futile thought.

Foolishness Of Unbelief

Many think it is foolish to have such faith in the Bible, including Christians. It angers many that someone should take the Bible to be the final authority, as we do, on faith. What alternative do those raising this supposed objection have to offer? They say that they object based upon what their senses and their reason tells them. Perhaps they claim to take “science” as their authority in matters of truth, even when it comes to judging whether or not the Bible is the Word of God. There is a serious problem with this view. How do we know that science is a reliable guide to truth? We cannot test “science” using science. Even if we could test science in this way, we would just be using science to test science, and the question is whether or not science is reliable in the first place! Those wanting to defend the view in question could say that they have faith in science, but this means that their final authority fails at the most basic level. Having “faith in science” is not scientific at all, and so the position falls under its own weight. The foundation is cracked, and even if it were not, it would not be wide enough. There are many things which cannot be touched by science. Logic is not scientifically testable, nor are moral laws, yet the reality of both of these press upon us every day! Furthermore, how do we know that the universe will continue to work in predictable ways? Should we remain open to new possibilities in scientific discovery, even unpredictable ones? If so, why should we continue in science upon the assumption that things will remain the same?

Christians believe the Bible. God has given us our senses and reason to use in coming to truth. Science is something we are able to do because God made and controls the world. Furthermore God has made us in such a way that we are able to come to know the world. While there is much to learn, we will never learn anything that overturns a fact which is known and revealed by our all-knowing and loving God. God has revealed Himself to us through His creation and given us reliable tools to know Him more. This we know because the Bible tells us so. We make observations and think about them and come to conclusions. However, in using our faculties we do not take them to be the final authority.

God has given us the Bible. May we reflect on this and allow it to shape our understanding of all we think, say, and do, even when it comes to defending the Bible itself.

About the Author

C.L. Bolt holds a B.A. Philosophy (High Honors) and B.A. Religion from Lynchburg College (Magna Cum Laude) where he was awarded with the 2007 Raymond Morgan Award in Philosophy, 2008 Virgil Hinds Award in Religion, 2008 Access Achievement Award, was inducted into Phi Kappa Phi and was a member of the 2008 VFIC Ethics Bowl Team. He is pursuing his M.Div. with a concentration in Biblical and Theological Studies at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY. He contributes to Choosing Hats apologetics blog at www.choosinghats.com and wrote a chapter for The Portable Presuppositionalist by Jamin Hubner available at www.amazon.com. He lives in Indiana with his wife Kerri and dog Flash.

Conversation with a Mormon -- The Fall of Man

This is a pick-up conversation from a discussion I had with a mormon fellow, Andrew. The topic is moving from Harmatology, to the fall of man. Most people who study Mormonism are aware of there concept of "falling-up"

Ken:
So, based on that, wouldn't it be better to not tell anyone that anything is sin, so that they arnt held accountable for it?
Andrew:
No... because then we would never learn anything... we would be as naive and innocent as we were before we were born. God wants us to experience, learn, grow, make mistakes and then correct ourselves, so that we can grow and become like him.
Andrew:
If we never have to choose between right and wrong, we can never grow, learn, or change for the better.
Andrew:
We become better when we learn how to make right decisions.
Ken:
But didn't God Make adam and eve without the knowledge of sin, and say it was "very Good"
Ken:
what is better then Very Good?
Andrew:
Well Im sure he was pleased with their physical bodies that he created... his creation (their bodies) is what he called "very good"
Ken:
wouldn't there character and nature also be included in his creation?
Andrew:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=references&last=2+Nephi+2%3A23-25&help=&ro=checked&search=2+Nephi+2%3A22%0D%0A-25&do=Search&show=%0D%0A%0D%0A
Andrew:
These scriptures help in understanding what they were like in the garden of eden.
Ken:
So would you say that Sin Entering the World was a good thing?
Andrew:
In the long run it is.
Andrew:
Thanks to the Atonement of Christ.
Andrew:
this article might help:
Andrew:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=89e2de3e3559b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
Andrew:
Im sorry Ken but I have to be going soon. It has been a privilege to talk with you and I hope I have been of some help.
Ken:
So have you ever thanked God that there is Rape, Murder, Adultery, Homosexuality, Bestiality, Pain, Suffering, Bitterness, Lust, Pornography... ect? Sense they are good in the long run
Ken:
or rather it is good that they are here?
Andrew:
Im sorry to have upset you. Those are terrible things that men have chosen to do because God gave us "agency." Those are unfortunate side effects caused by man, but if God never gave us "agency" we would still be naive, innocent children.
Andrew:
He's giving us an amazing chance.
Ken:
oh, don't mistake me for being unset... but it seems religiously backwards to have a form of closet approval of the effects of sin
Andrew:
Well I have to go now, but please read those linked articles and log back on again soon! God bless you

A Knock at the Door

I was sitting at home alone, on Friday. It was about noon. I was watching the end of the movie "Gladiator." Then came a knock at the door.

I was very confused... I was not expecting anyone, but was clothed by chance. I looked through the peep hole, and there was a single older gentlemen, who I was sure was a vacuum salesmen. He had on a long black coat and a very nice black hat.

I opened the door.

"Hello," he said. " I am looking for John Conrad."
*Confused* "Well, my wife and I live hear, and I am not John Conrad. Is there something I can help you with?"
"Oh, well, I have here a request from John Conrad, This is 203 correct?"
"This is 203, but I am not John Conrad."
"Well, John was looking to have someone teach him about the bible"
*I perked up from my distress at missing the final fight seen* "Really?!"
"Yes, Are you interested in learnig about the bible?"
*At this point I was fairly confident, that this man was no longer a Vacuum salesmen, but that he was a Jehovah's Witness, I know I let out I big grin* "well sure, Come on in!"
"Well, Thank you"
*A chance meeting. I was looking to call these guys and look who shows up. This is just to convenient.*

The fellow, who would introduce himself as "Dean" came in and proceeded to try to explain what the bible was. He seemed very, shall I say, unrehearsed. He stumbled over his words, he seemed very unsure of himself. I wonder if it was because I was intimidating, or he hadn't done this often. Either way it was a painful ten minutes of "bible-learnin" I couldn't stand to Hear the introduction of what the bible was.

"You know Dean, I think that this is pretty cool, but I am in Bible College"

This launched us into a 5 minute discourse about bible college.

Which culminated in him finally opening the bible, to 2 Peter 1:20-21. (which is surprising that he didn't go to 2 Timothy 3:16).

We had a pleasant conversation, and then he asked if there was a time that he could come back. I said that the next day, Saturday, would work.

He and His wife came back on Saturday at one, it was pretty cool. I have it recorded, in audio form. Which may make its way up here at some point.

Unpopular? I Can Deal With That... A discussion of women in the Church.

Women in the Church has been a highly, shall I say, flammable that can drive a wedge between families and can tear a church apart. It separates denominations, and can be the cause for tossing insult and innuendo. That being said, I want to place what I believe is the biblical view out there. I have no doubt that names will be called and that accusations will be made based off of this, but that is fine with me, as such tactics are reserved for those who have no intelligible argument to rebut with. This stems for a resent post that I read on another blog that will not be named, but I will say that I have not received a response.

Where do you believe women can serve in the Church?

“... A quick response would be to say anywhere except for men’s ministries.”

- I was somewhat assuming that this would be your stance. I do have one question for you. Do you believe that Women can be Husbands? I know it sounds funny but I think it is a very important issue. Here is why:

Tit 1:5 shows that Elders are to be appointed to there office. And 1 Tim 5:17 defines at least part of there job as preaching and teaching, that is not the totality, but anyone who does such things should be considered an Elder.

Tit 1:6 says that an Elder must be the Husband of one Wife. This is echoed in 1 Tim 3:2. 1 Tim 3:5 asks the Question - if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church? Again, the idea being that the elder must be male.

In fact, when looking at what is said about elders, there is no feminine or neutered gender involved, it is all male. ( This is of course in the Greek).

I would love someone to supply an argument detailing why women can be pastors, in response to this. Also, I would like to make a few things clear. This is not a statement on the worth of women, or even on the ability of women, but simply of the office that is to be held and the qualifications and requirements of being an Elder. Not making the cut is not a bad thing, many men, many elders today in American churches don't make the cut, this does not demean there worth in any sense.

A breif Response to Bot.

Friends, we have a problem. We see in our age , like in previous ages that heresy is trying to be called orthodox Christianity. Today we see all kinds of heresy being called Christian, perhaps it is those who claim to be the "true Church" or those who claim to have the "true Gospel" but it all falls short of the bible. So let's examine one claim of a Mormon, bot. I do apologize for him, his confusion as to the concept of truth, as to the bible, as to hermeneutics, as to what it means to follow Christ.


Here is a statement from his blog. "A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose." Now in and of it self this statement may be true, however, it fails in it's concept of hermeneutics. We can not say that the New Testament is the only authority on God. So What does the Old Testament say? Well lets look at What God said through the Prophet Isaiah.

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.
(Isa 43:10-11)

Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen. Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."
(Isa 44:6-8)

I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
(Isa 45:5-6)

For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
(Isa 45:18)

Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
(Isa 45:21-22)

"Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
(Isa 46:8-10)


So how many times did you count God saying He is the Only God?? ( the answer is 11) So as a Mormon, how do you address this in light of your Polytheistic ( Well, truly Henotheistic) beliefs? The Bible is Monotheistic, but Mormonism Believes in many God's. The only answer is that you don't believe the Bible.

hmmm.... Do Christian's Reject the bible as truth? I think not.

Meeting with Mormons

(Knock, Knock) Hello, my name is elder ..... Hi, I'm from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

How do you feel when this happens? Let me tell you, I love it! I love meeting with Mormons. There is no cult on the face of the earth that it is easier to refute. Now, please don't get me wrong I like Mormons, they are great people, at least in human terms I would love to have one as a next door neighbor, as I know they would feed the cats, without fail. However, when looking at empirical evidence, ie doctrine, Mormonism falls far short of truth. For the heck of it I will offer a quick proof.

As Bishop Lewis said to me today, Mormonism stands or falls on the vision of Joseph Smith seeing Jesus and the Father in the woods. Well, lets look at it briefly shall we? Can anyone see God? 1 Timothy 6 say this speaking of the Father - (v.15-16)Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Well It looks like it falls. God the Father Can't be seen. Well that was easy.

Now then, let me say something so that I am not misunderstood. We need to love our Mormon neighbor's. We need to give them the gospel, we need to use the law to bring them into repentance. They need to be converted so that they can pass from death into life. Because do not be mistaken, If someone dies believing Mormon doctrine, they will be in Hell for Eternity. So lets be evangelistic.

My tips for dealing with Mormons are as follows: 1. Be kind, terms like Cult, Anti-Christ, Hell bound, and the like, might be accurate they won't get you very far. 2. Never Go Alone, Never. I don't care how smart you are, how faithful you are, you are playing with fire, this is Spiritual warfare and it isn't a game. 3. Like all people, don't expect quick results. Be systematic in how you attempt to cause doubt in the Mormon Church. That should be the end goal, as those who are caught up in it, look to the Church for Salvation. 4. Learn Mormonism from Mormons. Have your local missionaries over for dinner ( and keep them coming back with food, as they don't often eat well, they are young guys that rarely know how to cook). 5. Don't tell them what they believe, every Mormon is slightly different, simply state what previous Mormon writers have said and move on from there, based on them. 6. Finally, take a person centered approach, and do so in love.

There are a lot of good sources for information out there, and a lot of bad ones. Utah Lighthouse Ministries (Ultm.org) is very good, as is Mormonism Research Ministries (Mrm.org), and of Course Christian Apologetics and Research Ministries (Carm.org). Go and talk to a Mormon today.